No nonsense about No Nonsense

Hi Geraden,

Of course it is a very positive thing that a large manufacturer advertises tights for men. It is a proof that the companies are pondering seriously what to do with the growing group of male wearers.

Another question is if The No Nonsense’s modest way to launch tights for men is the smartest and most reasonable. For many of us who have the ‘real nylon gene’ it does not matter if there are women or men depicted on the package, we buy simply for the reason that we know that they are –in a way or another –evocative and good, irrespective of to which gender they are originally made for.

But to win new markets from the ‘first time male wearers’ it DOES matter how the product is branded. The package showing women legs in sheer nude tights, miniskirt and high-heels can be a repugnant experience for those men who are seriously pondering whether to wear tights or not. Men usually are very aware of their masculinity, and all the associations to pink miniskirts – and to the female domain in general – can have a negative effects in this context.

If a company seriously plans to expand their market they have to do on the men’s own terms.

Wishes,

Kaj

Kaj

You are absolutely right in what you say. On the whole I think that what No Nonsense are doing is flying a kite and seeing what the reaction is. What if anything they do next depends on that reaction. At present they are just promoting existing hosiery ranges for both sexes instead of one. This is basically what retailers like mytights.com do anyway. But it is interesting that a manufacturer is doing it!

I know some people argue strongly in favour of tights designed specifically for men, as opposed to re-branded women's tights, but the fact is that the differences in shape between men and women can usually be accommodated by the fact that good quality nylon/lycra knit is extremely adaptable to size and shape. Activskin (and other brands) are excellent tights designed for men, but what will make the difference – in terms of mainstreaming men's hosiery – is not so much tights designed for men, as tights marketed for men – i.e. with male legs on the packet rather than mini-skirts and high heels! I know this is heresy to the purists, but if the contents of the packet are re-branded women's tights (in male-friendly sizes of course), so what, if it hastens the revolution of male hosiery as mainstream fashion?

Of course I applaud manufacturers who are going the whole way, like Gerbe, and developing ranges specifically for men, but surely, anything is better than nothing? So for their (albeit timid) effort, we should encourage No Nonsense rather than criticise them and suspect their motives. Positive feedback works better than negative every time!

Geraden

I think it is a step in the right direction, even if they are not made specifically for men. As a member of LAUF, I want to see legwear as a unisex fashion, meaning being worn and accepted by both sexes. Also, for me being in the US, No Nonsense is in every supermarket and drug store, a lot easier to stop in and grab a pair there then go to a speciality store or shop online. I applaud their effort, and look forward to more manufacturers doing the same.

Hi,

I'm the web marketing manager for www.Nononsense.com. We launched the mens pages this week as external landing pages to the site. We made this decision after we had some email communications and phone calls with a few men purchasing from the site.

We did notice men are buying our products.

This is our first attempt and it appears we need to make some changes to the pages so everyone is aware that these pages are real pages on nononsense.com. Our current site doesn't allow the flexibility to add a mens category, nor do we have products (outside a few socks) specifiaclly designed for men.

We did notice and we do care.

Whether we will be able to incorporate a men's specific shopping expereince, I can't tell at this time.

I'm happy to start a dialog with anyone who wants to ask questions. My email address is webmarketingmanager@nononsense.com.

Suggestions are welcomed.

We care and this was what we thought was a polite way to acknowledge men buying hosiery.

regards,

nononsensegirl

NoNonsense Girl I haven't had much experience with your products, however with a woman's hosiery company FINALLY acknowlegding that men buy their products too, I am inclinded to become a faithful customer. It would be very helpful if you made the men's page a part of your main site- Maybe under trends since this seems to come after the Milan show where men were shown wearing leggings and with the Today show announcing they would be doing a man hose segment. Thank you for doing this. It's a major step forward.

omaguywears

I appreciate the new no nonsense mens page and I think is the right way to develop the male market without alienating the female purchaser. If it is of any help my wife often buys my pantyhose for me and we regard them as normal underwear for both of us. It was in fact my wife's mom who suggested I wear a pair of pantyhose for working outside on my car when I was younger. They were so comfortable that I have worn pantyhose (tights in England) ever since...40 years ago. For sizing I usually go by the weight and height and buy the next size up from the womens chart. That works fine in your range of products - which I frequently purchase by the way. To market them I would suggest that you write articles (several)in the new trends section of your site and suggest that the ladies buy their men a pair or two. I think if you involve the women in setting this new trend for men you will get greater acceptance from both sexes. There are some women who don't like the idea but I think a good 50 to 60% would quite like the idea of seeing their men in pantyhose. I know mine does. This is good news from no-nonsense and I am quite sure that it is a very good business opportunity for Kayser Roth if it is handled tactfully and with good humour. Finally there may be a need to have male oriented packaging at a later date as some men may be put off trying them (new wearers) by the female directed packages. They may be the same article just in a different design package - maybe sports oriented. For promotion I'd suggest someone like David Beckham who I know wears them on the soccer field for endurance.

First of all, thank you, Nononsensegirl, for posting your comment here. I am pleased, flattered even, to have received a response from a mainstream hosiery manufacturer. From what I hear and read, No Nonsense is big in the USA and your products can be found in every supermarket and corner shop. By contrast, the brand is almost unheard of in Britain.

I was chatting with two of my friends online yesterday, one in the US and one (like me) in the UK. Both were very impressed with the fact that No Nonsense had created men's pages and that you had left your comment and e-mail address on this site. I cannot make the address clickable in the comment, so I have put a clickable link in the article instead.

I see that responses have started to come in on this site, and I am prepared to bet that you are getting quite a few in your mailbox. If I had to make some generalisations for you about male hosiery wearers, I would say that they are (a) more numerous than you would think (b) but largely secret (c) more knowledgeable than you might guess – more so than many women (d) though the majority are silent, some of us are quite vocal!

I think you are taking the right approach in listening to us. A lot of established male wearers do not care whether the legs shown on the packet are male or female. Indeed we are almost conditioned to seeing female legs on the packet. But you need to expand your market to pick up men who may have heard about the benefits of wearing tights / pantyhose, but are nervous about the image. To have any hope of catching them you have to redesign - not necessarily your products, but your packaging and marketing.

I know that some of my friends in the male tights world would disagree quite vehemently. They argue in favour of tights designed specifically for men. There is nothing wrong with this, but the laws of supply and demand do not at present work in their favour.

I think that the anatomical differences can be exaggerated, particularly where super-stretchy fabrics are concerned. In my opinion size and durability are more important than niceties of shape. Men do demand more durable products – both because of lifestyle differences, but also because men are not used to seeing any form of clothing as a disposable commodity.

Your web pages are a good start, but I am sure that you will agree that what you have now is only a start. The pages need to integrated properly into your site with links from your main pages. The content needs to be improved. Photos of men wearing tights/pantyhose are essential if you want to encourage men to buy for themselves.

Well done, though!

Just a word to the others who have commented – thank you, and I hope that the company takes note of what we are all saying!

Coldguy: I am not sure that David Beckham has ever actually taken to the football field in tights, though he is not averse to a little gender bending in the matter of dress, and he would be a great role model if he did do so.

I think you might be thinking of Ryan Giggs, who did at least once come from the subs bench onto the field in opaque tights.

Geraden

Geraden, I couldn't agree with you more on the way you worded things in your comment. I tried to express my optimism in LAUF. Some didn’t like my comments about a unisex design. I think you have a better perspective. They do already make fine products suitable for men. I know, I have bought them and worn them. I also replied back to the LAUF forum agreeing the biggest difference is in the packaging and how it appears to men.

Geraden,

As per my recent comment on Mainstreaming Men's Hoisery, regarding the new men's section on Gerbe's Website, would it be a good idea to forward this link to Nononsensegirl with some more appropriate words.... i.e. a Major European manufacturer is about to launch a range of opaques and sheers?

Keith

Hi,

I hope that I didn’t sound too critical in my comment. It was not my meaning to be arrogant to No Nonsense’s pioneer effort. I find the whole project and also the Nononsens girl’s reply very positive.

But Gerbe launches men’s tights in such a elegant way. Fantastic!

Of course it is important to have the access from the main page to the men’s tights page. How can you enter the room if there is no door? It is a hard work for anyone to climb through the window.

‘Coldguy’ suggested enticing David Beckham to act like a tights model. Beckham is British and No Nonsense is American. Why not ask the super hero President himself to be a model for the whole nation. Maybe tights would show him in a gentler light. And in the case of ladders he could always consult his friend Condoleezza.

Regards,

Kaj

Hi all.

I agree with many of you, that this is a positive step forward.

Honestly, how do we really know that this hosiery is made for women? If you ask them how a pair feels, then they'll probably say that it isn't long enough. We suggest that they try a size larger. If you ask us how it feels, then we'll probably say that it isn't long enough. We suggest that we try a size larger. See a pattern? Everybody needs a larger size, so if we really are honest about it, then we won't know what is and is not men's hosiery, if we based our decision solely on the size. Hosiery is different from pants. Pants have a certain style that is feminine or masculine. The height of the waist, the "snugness" of the pants and even the lack of pockets can indicate what is men's pants and women's pants. Hosiery doesn't have those distinguishing characteristics. They only distinguishing characteristics of hosiery is the colour, opacity, and pattern . In short, the only way we really know that the hosiery is for men or women is how it is marketed and packaged.

To further drive this home, let me say to you, "I have a shoe that is a 15 inches long. Is it a woman's shoe or a man's shoe?". You can make logical guesses, but you can't say for sure. The reason for that is because the distinguishing factors are more than just size. I suppose that there are feminine colours, and patterns, but that is about all there is to the differences between men's hosiery and women's hosiery, that I can think of.

So when the company makes a simple step towards mainstreaming hosiery, then we should applaud them. The packaging isn't exactly where it needs to be for mainstreaming, but the contents are there.

Kaj, I agree with you. It is significant that they market to the men. I also think that that is a step that is too far away for that company. I suspect that it would cost too much to sell, if they had to repackage the hosiery as men's hosiery. The cost for a marketing campaign could be too costly, if the timing isn't right.

A thought occurred to me as I typed this. How do we really know that men really care about seeing a man on the package? What if they only want to see women? After all, women are more comfortable dancing with women. Men are not comfortable dancing with men. I think that most men don't want to see other men in pornography. Is it possible that seeing a man scantily clad on the package will turn off mainstream men? I think that it might. Seeing a scantily clad man on the package may only reinforce the stereotype of being gay. It would probably require a sports figure that is fully clothed.

-- Sincerely, and with thanks, Eugene T.S. Wong

More excellent comments! This article is showing the greatest interest of any new article on this blog – ever.

First, I am sure that Nononsensegirl is monitoring this site carefully, and probably LAUF as well, so she and her colleagues at No Nonsense will be well aware of what is happening elsewhere, such as Gerbe (thanks Keith, for spotting that the men's page on their site is now available, and that it is linked from the home page – NN take note!)

Kaj - David Beckham (again!) may be British, but he has signed for an American football (sorry, soccer) club LA Galaxy from 1st July 2007. He is therefore well placed to promote male legwear to the American market. The question is, would he, and who could afford his fees?

I do not think that 'Dubya' would influence many American men to wear legwear – his popularity, except in the Republican right, is way down.

Eugene – you make some good points. If you see someone wearing tights or pantyhose under shorts or a skirt, how do you know whether the hose were designed and made for men or for women? – you don't.

About the packaging: I would rather see a women's legs than a man's any day! So would most men. But seeing a male image on a hosiery package will not put men off from buying, any more than seeing a male image on an underwear or swimwear packet. The female image, however good eye-candy it may be, will put off many men from buying for themselves.

The real danger is that images of men in hosiery may put women off from buying hosiery for themselves. Some women will think it is cute (eye-candy again) but others could think, 'Ugh – I'm not wearing something that is worn by those weirdos!' That is why marketing hosiery to men has to be done so carefully and sensitively if it is not to alienate the female customer base.

Geraden

Geraden, good point, regarding the male underwear packaging. You've convinced me.

Kaj, Your sarcasm to the President and Secretary of State of the United States really isn’t relevant to the perception of men wearing pantyhose. If you feel wearing pantyhose makes you a better man than you again are mistaken. The idea of pantyhose/tights excepted as a unisex fashion certainly is not politically motivated, nor do the political perspectives of others have much influence on this matter. Let’s stick to a constructive approach to this subject and leave the political leaders of the world out of it.

Dear ManLeggs (and everybody else),

Please, accept my apologies. It was not my intention to hurt anybody’s political feelings, or to irritate anybody. It was just my inferior humour. As the matter of fact I am a rather non-political person, that’s why I am not always aware of if I have exceeded the limits of good taste.

I know very well that tights do not make any man or woman better or worse. It is just the amount of humanism that counts, i.e. how human we act towards other individuals, cultures, peoples, nations, and nature, of course. And humanism is non-political, isn’t it?

Sincerely,

Kaj

I sincerely concur with your idea of what makes us better to the world. That is probably why we are both here voicing our thoughts on a subject which is often ridiculed by people with narrow little minds. I do have a sense of humor and respect the fun of poking at politicians. We do enjoy that here in the USA. I believe many would think it ridiculous of us blogging about society’s lack of acceptance for males to wear pantyhose or tights. Why don’t we just do what we want if it doesn’t harm anyone? We don’t because we do care what others think. I thank you for your response back to me. I think we all care. That is why we don’t want to be judged poorly for no good reason.

Mike

Thank guys!

It's been a treat reading the blog and I've also received several emails. I'm sure they will continue to arrive.

I've seen several references to LAUF, but am not familiar with the site or blog. Would someone please send or post the address for me? I'm very interested in checking it out.

I did take a look at the Gerbe pages. Kudos to them! It is done with great taste. I have a difficult time getting the budget for photo shoots for the web. We try to repurpose photography/content from other areas in the company.

I just wanted to set something straight. Several emails have suggested we posted the pages since the article about men's tights at the Milan fashion show a few weeks ago hit the net. Not true. It took about 6 months of prodding to get these pages, albeit conservative, through the red tape at the company.

As many have pointed out in the posts, it is expensive to create and deviate from a national brand position. Risking alienation of current customers is something we need to take into consideration. No nonsense's history is as a woman's brand. Can we change that? Why not. But it's going to take awhile.

I'd also like to state that any posts/emails I write are my personal views and not necessarily the views of the company. Whatever that legal jumbo is...I'm just a girl sitting at my desk trying to make decisions about website sales.

I read all the emails sent to me and try to respond within 1 business day. That's why I felt so strongly going to bat to post external landing pages for men. The internet is the perfect place for me to communicate to our customers and I just wanted the guys who have been emailing for a few years to know that I am listening.

We will be sending a survey to our registered customers in a few weeks. Once we can segment our male customers, I hope you'll be seeing different emails - even some with men in them?? (They will be subjected to the same red tape process again)

Again, I’m glad we can at least take the baby steps that everyone has mentioned. We will try to integrate the pages with an update planned later this year.

Until later, keep wearing whatever you want. Be comfortable.

nononsensegirl

Hi Nononsensegirl

Thanks for getting back to us. Some of us were sceptical that you were for real, suspecting some kind of hoax, but I think the sceptics have been silenced now.

In case anyone still doubts, I will say that you and I have corresponded privately by e-mail and I have no doubt (not that I was inclined to doubt in the first place) that this is a genuine attempt by a major hosiery manufacturer to acknowledge and cater for its male customers.

You have said kind things about this blog, and I in turn would like to praise your courage at getting the men's pages up on your site. I can imagine that there was some resistance to the idea, and I know well the arguments about alienating female customers. I have been aware for a long time that that is the real sticking point: if it were not so, marketing to men would be commonplace by now.

I did not think that your pages were a reaction to the Milan Fashion Show. There is a connection but it is different: both are a reaction to an idea whose time is coming!

LAUF stands for Legwear As Unisex Fashion – it is a forum on Delphi Forums, and probably the best unisex hosiery forum in the English speaking world. Click on the link. I think you have to register now, but it is free.

Regards

Geraden

Finally some good news. IHAVE ALWAYS BENN SHY ABOUT buying in person ,over phone, etc. Now we have acceptance by a major dealer. This will everyone.

Finally!

It's only been over 200 years since men were "allowed" to wear tights.

I love them for the sexyness they provide but also I do play sports and they are great for skiing, running etc....

Welcome, Jen

I quite agree! About time we got back a traditionally male garment, but in modern fabrics that feel and look good!

I had to walk 4 miles home from work today in the snow because transport had ground to a standstill here in Birmingham. Fortunately I was wearing support tights to keep my legs feeling energised and opaques on top for warmth, so I made it in 1 hour and 15 minutes - which isn't bad going!

Please drop by again.

Geraden

Well Geraden, This is getting great ! These articles,URL's are getting the word out. Excited, you bet ! At least, there's legitamency to publically wearing with shorts, or with pants. Since my last post on LAUF,our plant closed permanently. Forced retirement.But, going back to school/college. I am still wearing pantyhose to classes. Been wearing all these years.I'm not going to stop now. There's NO reason to quit wearing. See ya !

well done!! and said! i too have been a wearer for the past 15 years ( i'm 30 now ) and have been fortunate enough to have my other(better)half being so very understanding with my hose wearing habits..i suspect there are other less fortunate male users out there that could really benifit from the open advertising (and the actual sales ofcourse) of the big hosiery companies such as Nononsense and Gerbe..until then, my fingers are crossed

A few days ago, I did a "Thank you" to No Nonsense. I did do some suggestions,like on e-mancipate.org, about showing the whole family hiking or what ever they do, outdoors.It's like the couple, walking in dark tone/color tights/pantyhose with shorts. Did suggest that nylons be worn when hiking, as to prevent direct contact with poison ivy and poison oak.You sure can't do this with bare legs ! Sort of a layer of protection. Also, a few hours ago, I send send an e-mail to nononsensegirl.Also forwarded the e-mail I sent to customer service. I didn't know about any of this until a guy here in town,sent me the URL about No Nonsense.That was Febuary 1st. Then, all of a sudden,it's getting exciting and very interesting. Nononsensegirl,I did sign up for an account ! I will tell you here, "Thank you" from all of us. Last summer, I did buy many pairs of "No Nonsense" STW's in tan, to specifically wear with shorts. And, I am or will wear those nylons with shorts even more this year. And,please do tell your boss, we will be buying,and are getting the word out. No Nonsense, good job !

The link to the No Nonsense mens pages does not work any more - it just takes you to the No Nonsense home page.

Time to e-mail Nononsensegirl, I think!

G.

I emailed nononsensegirl,

<geraden@gmail.com>

18 February 2007 00:27

To: Webmarketingmanager - nononsense <webmarketingmanager@nononsense.com>

Hi Karen (again!)

What has happened? - the mens' pages have gone!

Has there been a change of policy - you seemed so positive about marketing for men?

Please let me know!

Best wishes

and she replied:

Webmarketingmanager - nononsense <webmarketingmanager@nononsense.com>

19 February 2007 14:01

To: <geraden@gmail.com>

Hi

Yes, the pages are temporarily down. Seems that some of the content (can reduce swelling) is a medical claim, and NN doesn't have the right to use such claims. I'll be working on updated copy and get them back up in a few days!

So it seems this is a temporary blip, and all is not lost.

Geraden

I do hope this is true. I was about to order some of their products and take advantage of their sale prices for the day, but when I saw the pages were down, I held off. I will patronize them over others if they respect the male customers too. If they treat us the same as other makers then I can shop elsewhere too.

Hi all, I have emailed several people about the pages being removed. I have reduced the copy into one page (since some of it was repetitive anyway) and forwarded to our legal department. Hopefully by Monday I'll have a response and be able to post the page(s) again.

I'm out of the office the rest of the week at a conference. I'll check in midweek with an update if the pages aren't up by then.

Thanks everyone! I'm enjoying our dialog and hope it continues.

Nononsensegirl

Thank you, Nonosensegirl! We do appreciate what you are doing. There was a fear that you had been sat on rather heavily by your bosses. However I am hopeful that the legal problem can be sorted out quickly, and we look forward to seeing your men's pages again. You can trust us to give favourable publicity!

Geraden